- Rob Kischuk, CEO of Converge and podcast host
The CEO of a data analytics company joins us to talk about data reporting insights and which social media platforms give tangible results? We also look behind the scenes into the Marketing Agency Leadership podcast.
Rudy Fernandez 0:00
Hey everyone, this is Rudy Fernandez from Creative Outhouse. In this episode I spoke with Rob Kischuk, CEO of Converge. It’s pretty amazing technology that automates your digital marketing reporting. First time I saw it, I thought, whoa, this changes things. Rob gave us some deep insights into which digital channels are working, how they’re working, and how best to make use of the flood of data marketers have access to these days. Rob is also the host of the popular Marketing Agency Leadership podcast, and we talked about podcasts have affected his business. Rob is super smart, which will become evident as you listen to the podcast. And to be honest, editing this episode was tough because of all the useful information. Check it out. Welcome to Marketing Upheaval.
You’re listening to Marketing Upheaval.
Rudy Fernandez 0:52
Welcome to Marketing Upheaval. My guest is Rob Kischuk, CEO of Converge. It’s a brilliant marketing technology company that automates digital marketing reporting. Rob is also the host of the Marketing Agency Leadership podcast, which is listed in the top 15 podcasts for agency owners and executives. Rob was the one who inspired me to create this podcast. So we’re going to talk about both of those worlds digital and audio. Thanks for joining me, Rob.
Rob Kischuk 1:15
Thank you so much. It’s great to be able to join you.
Rudy Fernandez 1:18
Just for listeners. Can you tell me a little bit about Converge and what it does?
Rob Kischuk 1:21
Sure Converge automates the process of generating marketing reports across digital social, offline marketing channels. This is something people in some companies will spend days every week or weeks every month, doing the same thing, just a treadmill of reporting for their clients, we really want to help them focus on locking in the methodology in the data collection and make all that automatic, so they can focus on being smart humans and actually make good solid recommendations to clients using their brains instead of just using their hands to slap spreadsheets into PowerPoint.
Rudy Fernandez 1:53
So what platforms
Rob Kischuk 1:54
Really anything you can imagine. A very small digital agency might use very simple core stuff: Google Analytics, AdWords, Google Search Console for SEO, let’s say Facebook, Instagram paid and organic Twitter, that sort of thing. And then you can get very robust and complex into high end SEO platforms like BrightEdge, you can get all the leads into internal CRM data, or even custom databases depending on the needs of the client.
Rudy Fernandez 2:23
And I’ve seen it – it’s all on a dashboard. Yeah, easy to use, actually pretty cool. Actually you had a really nice story about getting funding from Mark Cuban back before you will converge. Yeah, tell listeners about that. It’s pretty cool story.
Rob Kischuk 2:34
Sure. So my wife decided one year that I was born in Indiana. She didn’t decide that but she observed that I was born in Indiana and I liked football. And that was the year the Super Bowl was in Indianapolis. So she got all of my family to basically pool in money for my birthday and Christmas that year. And when I go somewhere, I’m not really good at taking a lot of time off. I’m always looking for a way to do something that can move the business forward. So I went to a startup pitch competition at a local coworking space up there. It was being moderated by Scott Case, who’s the founding CTO of Priceline, and was running Startup America at that time. And some people at that competition said, Hey, Rob, we are having a Shark Tank watching party tonight. We invited Mark Cuban, would you like to come? And the answer to that is yes, I think pretty much always. He was sitting down at a table and companies from that pitch competition, a couple of them, Scott Case introduced him to them. And I watched as he went through and listen to their pitches. And then after those two, nobody was talking to the guy. So I had just been working on Badgy, which was the genesis of this company. After listening to it. We talked for about 10 minutes, he said, I’m interested. Here’s my email. Let’s keep talking. And with help from Merrick Furst, who is a mentor in the room, the Flashpoint startup accelerator here, he kind of helped me when I screwed up the negotiating process a little bit gotten back on track, and we get deal done.
Rudy Fernandez 4:00
Wow, that’s amazing. just walked up to him and pitched your company.
Rob Kischuk 4:04
You really just have to propel yourself that 10 feet to start, and then you’re stuck in the conversation. So you might as well keep going. What are some of the bigger barriers that you find when you when you’re pitching this to people or doing a demo? That’s a great question. I think the big problem is always when you’re selling something new, you’re selling something new. And so it’s not the easiest decision, the default decision, but to be more particular about our product. We started off actually working with very large brands, the platform as we know it now was incubated with Edelman, the big global PR agency. And we were working with Disney, Samsung, Turner, HP, great brands like that, entirely on organic social media dashboards. We did those and we thought, “This is great. We’re going to go to every big agency in the world, and they’re going to take us to all the big brands and we’re going to solve their problems.” And what we’ve really learned is that for that scope and scale of client and agency, they had actually already sold through the work to the client. And we were just a means of fulfilling what we had been sold through. So now after the fact, if we’re going to a large agency, most of the time, we’re trying to equip them to sell us through to the brand, which is why we’re not as focused on that sort of client anymore because trying to equip someone else to sell your product is tremendously hard. A lot of our better clients are the Independent agencies that are being run by someone who’s in charge, who has decision making authority, who they can see, my people are wasting their time on this thing. Now that ties into the other obstacle, which is, if a business is geared around, let’s say, you know, if you’re trying to move a pile of dirt, and you get paid by how much time you spend moving dirt, then you’re not going to buy a dump truck. You’re not going to rent a dump truck. You’re gonna give a bunch of people shovels and let them move the dirt around. And that can be the same situation with reporting and data if reporting has both been sold through as an hourly expense for x hours a month, and you don’t have additional work waiting for the person who’s doing it, there’s not a reason to buy efficiency. And so that’s been changing as a lot of people are learning to sell reporting through as a deliverable. And for the value that they’re providing. And that’s, that’s a good positioning thing for any agency anyhow, is to position for the value you’re providing, not for the process.
Rudy Fernandez 6:27
I saw you do a demo one time, that’s exactly what I witnessed. We also work with a B2B company called SpotGenie that targets agencies. Similar barrier, which is from what I saw when you did a demo was we had people that do that. And the light bulb went off, like Okay, so now, this person who you’re presenting this to, who supervises people, and probably cares about those people, and they have jobs, and now you’re saying, Hey, here’s the thing that’s quicker, easier and is going to replace what those people do. Soon as I saw, soon as I witnessed it, I went, Oh, I get what his problem is. So what stage is Converge on now in terms of growth?
Rob Kischuk 7:09
It’s interesting, you know, we are, most importantly, we’re profitable. And we’re growing on revenue, which is a little bit of a different path that we have chosen, I could, you know, probably figure out how to raise more money. But it’s much more interesting and focusing, to figure out how to grow in the revenue that we have, how to plan our product roadmap in a way that delivers maximum value for our clients, rather than trying to connect to every platform in the world.
Rudy Fernandez 7:36
So what’s a good example of using this technology to move a brand forward?
Rob Kischuk 7:42
Some of the agencies that are really able to use Converge well, are the ones that are aligned to a more specific result for their client. So let’s say working with a number of B2B brands, and they’re actually able to if they can align and say, what’s the cost per lead? How’s that changing on each channel, how are we linking that through to conversion? You know, how’s that changing over time what’s working what’s not, it really becomes not just a dashboard, we’re not quite the controls, but we can help them know where to move the controls to make the dashboard move in the direction that they want. That’s also very similar on the e commerce side, because in that case, there’s usually a tremendous amount of spending going into Pay Per Click, going into remarketed, retargeted social, and they want to know the return on ad spend. So when we can tie those things together, it’s a lot easier. And I think it’s a good lesson is the agencies that can do that well can differentiate, and they can help prove the value through us. And that’s easier than if you’re saying, we’ll get you more followers on Instagram.
Rudy Fernandez 8:47
Yeah. I’ve wondered that because a lot of what we do, for example is behavior change, things that are more considered. We don’t have any pizza accounts. Usually some lifestyle change we’re trying to convince people of and so there’s not an immediate response. What are some good ways you think to measure that sort of progression on things that are harder to buy?
Rob Kischuk 9:10
I think there’s lessons that are sometimes everything old is new again, right? And so in TV advertising for CPG, right. What people will do a lot of times is they’ll advertise in one market but not in another or do different ads and different markets and try and basically have controls where they can see what worked and what didn’t. They can measure the lagging effect, even though it’s not direct. I think there will, there will always be channels, you can’t measure whether it made somebody go to a store, whether it made somebody decide to go sign up for a gym membership, but sometimes you have to go to these more lagging indicators or something a little bit softer. I will see people even look at doing consumer sentiment surveys actually going out and calling into people and then you know, that still becomes a data point you can bring in Yeah, next to these digital things that are very measurable.
Rudy Fernandez 10:02
It’s funny that you say that What’s old is new again, I was listening to the Social Media podcasts. And they were talking, they’re referencing a book that was written in 1950s. about, you know, the levels of awareness. It was so funny. I was like, Oh, my god that was like when I was in college years ago. What makes an agency or a direct client go “Yeah, that’s exactly what I need”. What is the thing that makes them go “I get it now. That’s what I want.”
Rob Kischuk 10:28
People are so heads down building their business, that they don’t realize that there’s something that can solve this problem in a better way and you pop up and you wave your hand and have some conversations about working together and oftentimes that works out. What’s very common for us though, is there are some different dashboard tools out there. Some of them require a data scientist, you know, something like your Domo or Tableau. If an agency has been trying to use Domo trying to use Tableau never really got it going. And then they lose their data scientists who they were keeping busy with too many ad hoc questions anyhow, a lot of agencies have a hard time attracting and retaining data scientists because they want to work on really cool research projects or something. And they don’t want to do the process oriented stuff that is really needed to run clients well. So sometimes losing a team member can be a big deal, or sometimes what we find is, there’s one marketing channel that is at the center of the business, we have one agency, we work with. They have 80 clients, those 80 clients are all on one CRM that nobody has ever heard of. No other platform, they’re going to pull off the shelf is going to integrate with it. And we do partner with them when the pain is high enough to get that data channel integrated and aligned with all the other normal stuff that they’re already doing their call tracking, their paid, you know, all their different paid campaigns.
Rudy Fernandez 11:49
So you’re not relying on investor funds. Now you’re relying on your own revenue. And you mentioned part of that is not going out to every platform on Earth. How do you balance that in order to keep up with new platforms that might be valuable, versus some that are questionable.
Rob Kischuk 12:04
It’s a very fair question. And we probably don’t have it solved personally. Sometimes we will have such conviction around a channel that we need to report on that we will go out there and do it even ahead of market demand. But what has more often been the case is that we will encounter a client who just they just resonate with what we’re doing. And they need everything we have, but they need one thing we don’t have. And so we will so often make progress by working with a client who is willing to pay a little bit more to have that one extra channel they need customized.
Rudy Fernandez 12:41
What are some outlier platforms you think have potential?
Rob Kischuk 12:45
Very interesting. One thing I will say that changed a lot over the past year, but I think even 18 months, maybe that’s still changing. LinkedIn ads has gone from irrelevance to a very strong consideration for a lot of people. I mean, especially in B2B. And what is also interesting and not quite universally true: Twitter has gone from a core necessity to something people say, Oh, it would be nice. Like Twitter ads has not taken and caught fire. So Google Display is trending up. I think the tools have progressed to where more and more people are capable of advertising against that platform. Yeah, YouTube continues to move forward. When we first started working on the Converge platform Disney was killing YouTube and the production values were very high. And now YouTube quality production is within reach for lots of people. There are families who make their entire living recording videos of playing with their kids and playing with toys.
Rudy Fernandez 13:52
Yes, I’ve seen. Well, actually, let me ask you about LinkedIn. It’s always seemed like the perfect platform, everybody’s there for one reason only, and that is business and to connect businesswise. So it seems perfect.
Rob Kischuk 14:08
What we used to see with LinkedIn is you would talk about LinkedIn ads. And all people would say is it’s expensive. And now they say, largely, it’s expensive. And it’s worth it. I think they’ve improved some on their conversion tracking. But I think they have room to grow. I think when you even look at some of the account based marketing companies, one of their struggles is still around matching email addresses. It’s great if you can pump your CRM out. And you can say, I want everybody who I’ve done a demo for, who’s a director and I want to target them with it out on LinkedIn. But if LinkedIn doesn’t know that email address from your CRM, then you’re not going to be able to target them with and ad. So that is still moving forward and getting better as well.
Rudy Fernandez 14:52
Okay, well, that’s good to know. So, what are some common mistakes you see people making?
Rob Kischuk 14:59
I think some common mistakes are choosing too many numbers to focus on. That’s is kind of the definition of looking at Google Analytics, you just kind of get in there. And you are immediately confused, because they have so many numbers, you can’t tell which ones are important. I think another very critical mistake is moving the football, if you will, like when Charlie Brown’s going to kick the football, and Peppermint Patty moves it and he falls down. But that is what a lot of reporting and data analytics can look like, you focus on the shiny thing. That month, you’ll say, well, we killed it on LinkedIn this month, next month, you’re like, well, we killed it on TV advertising this one. And if you’re not following a consistent methodology, where you’re saying what numbers are important to us, and we’re going to look at everything and see what’s working and what’s not. And we’re not just going to give ourselves a gold star for the thing that did work and ignore the things that didn’t work. It’s common and it’s honest, because we all want to like we are excited about the thing that did work. Yeah, but it often comes at the expense of consistency. Which is when consistency is what helps you stay honest, to actually say holistically what’s working and what’s not. Where are we still making mistakes?
Rudy Fernandez 16:09
I think that’s true of a lot of industries where if we can measure it, it’s important. And and that’s not necessarily true. These days, the amount of data and maybe now with your company, the collection of data is not the problem. It’s the interpretation of it. Do you find that to be the case?
Rob Kischuk 16:28
Yeah, you can collect the data, you can spend some time assembling it, the way you collect the data changes. So that is a place where you also end up spending time Google will tell you they’re going to change the way their exports work and the way their API’s work every six months. Facebook I think is on a four time of year cadence. So some of it even if you have a process, you’re going to have to evolve and adjust it but knowing what to do with it really is the challenge and the next level challenge is getting to the So What. So these are the things that happen: so what should we do now? And that is something where I don’t think I’ve seen products out there that will try and make artificial intelligence based recommendations. And it’s not good enough. And I don’t think it’s going to be good enough for a while, it really ends up making a recommendation that doesn’t pass the smell test, you look at it, and you know, it’s not true. And then you don’t know what else you can trust. So people I think, still need to have the critical thinking to get to that “So what”.
Rudy Fernandez 17:30
How do you avoid those mistakes with your clients? How do you help them avoid those mistakes?
Rob Kischuk 17:35
We have clients who come at different levels of maturity, for ones who come in lower levels of maturity, sometimes just giving a tried and true template that somebody else has also used well that adheres to good best practices is a good start. You know, I wish we had bothered to make a resource at this point is just say here’s like, Analytics 101 to help people. Because then the next step really is you can break the rules when you know why you’re breaking them. And that’s one of those next levels of maturity is to say, well for this client and this time, we’re going to break the rule because we know why.
Rudy Fernandez 18:14
Any social media platforms you think people are neglecting or not paying enough attention to?
Rob Kischuk 18:19
There’s a way to which social media has kind of I wouldn’t say it stagnated, but has matured. I think that’s a macro trend that’s worth kind of mentioning briefly is organic social, it’s become less of a focus on what is the hot organic social platform. We hear a lot more conversations about which paid social channels are more ready for the type of brand that wants to invest in it.
Rudy Fernandez 18:47
Obvious ones, you know, Facebook, you mentioned LinkedIn, who are some other safe ones?
Rob Kischuk 18:53
Snapchats data is coming along. Their ad platform is coming along. You could probably almost draw an adoption curve based on the strategy of a firm when they’re advertising. If you are looking for brand awareness, or just kind of mindshare for people, I think those tend to be some of the earlier adopters of some of these platforms, because they have experimental budget to spend on producing high quality TikTok content and thinking through how to do it in a way that fits into the ecosystem. Whereas, you know, the 50 person B2B Software as a Service startup down the street, there’s almost nothing they could do that would do right by them. That would be the right audience. So I think you see the brand stuff first. And then as the ad platforms mature, you see a push towards things where you can close the loop. And I think the first people to some of those tables is something can convert is your, your e commerce type folks, your direct marketing folks.
Rudy Fernandez 19:50
A lot of quantity versus quality. You know, let’s get on everything and let’s doesn’t matter. Let’s just get a lot of it out there.
Rob Kischuk 19:56
And I’ll make the point. The way things keep coming back around. You can use MailChimp to send postcards now. Yeah. So they have invented but not invented but invented a way of retargeting people based on their address. Yeah, by bringing down the cost of creating and sending a postcard triggered off of digital behavior. So that’s one of those things that for certain people, that’s going to be a better way to spend money than trying to make a really clever video.
Rudy Fernandez 20:24
Well that’s good to hear though. You’ve been on CNBC, and you talked about data breaches and privacy. What are you seeing in some some trends in terms of data and privacy that will affect marketers?
Rob Kischuk 20:36
One of the places where our data is most at risk right now is on our phones. And one of the trends you see is that both Google and Apple on Android and iOS are putting more and more control into the hands of users and they’re actually really trying to make it easier for you to manage your digital footprint. So an example: my phone just updates to Android 10. And for the past week and a half every morning when I wake up, there’s another app it just one per day, it’ll pop up an app and say, this app tried to did access your location when you weren’t running the app. Do you want to change that? The trend has been much like it was in Facebook advertising to do as much as you can, and then deal with the backlash later, I can target all these different ways. So I’m going to do that now. And worry about it later. So now we have all these apps that have all these permissions that are they’re going to be getting pulled back. Yeah, they’re going to move more and more towards Well, maybe you can’t get this location in the background. If you look at – we had one client who was saying, well, we’re just going to make sure everybody has to turn on push notifications in their app, and that’s going to serve our marketing strategy. Apple won’t let you do that anymore. So you’re not going to get away with kind of passively taking advantage of users. I think most users won’t turn off push notifications even though they should.
Rudy Fernandez 21:56
All that they collect- What do they do with it? How useful is it because I gotta tell you, I’m still not targeted very well, personally, when I’m sent things, it’s still… And granted, I do a lot of research for a lot of different industries. So I get stuff that’s completely irrelevant to me personally. What point is it? You just gathering it to to gather it?
Rob Kischuk 22:16
I’m not sure people know. And I think that’s part of why you’re seeing some of this pullback is like, you actually don’t you think you want this data, but you don’t know you need it. We’re almost digitally packratting information on users. Another big trend that we are seeing is, you know, California is passed a privacy law and other states are looking at it. And some brands are actually thinking about building policy management for their user data to try and just deal with GDPR. But California is rule in these other states right now. And unless somebody unless we get a national policy, and I’m not like we need a national policy for everything, kind of guy, but if we don’t have a national data policy soon, we’re going to have dozens of local data policies and brands are going to be tangled up in just trying to sort their way through that. Where are you seeing Facebook do pretty well, we used to Google do pretty well as we’re used to say, make this campaign optimize towards people who convert. So if somebody goes and buys something on a, let’s say, have a site full of custom socks, and they know who bought all the custom socks so far since the campaign started running, and then the campaign is configured to optimize towards people who are more like that, yeah, then the ad platform can bring the full weight of the data in to determine who is like the people who have bought. So it’s, AI is better able to use that data than humans are. And I think the danger of that is when the AI data does stuff that it may be inappropriate, we don’t know it, or maybe deliberately inappropriate. There’s some ways I think AI will accidentally do that. There’s some I think AI will let people intentionally do that. And I think we’re still going to have to see some care around that.
Rudy Fernandez 24:06
And so what will happen is there they’ll be marketers who are responsible, who use it at an inappropriate ways, and that’ll screw it up for everybody. Hopefully, it doesn’t happen.
Rob Kischuk 24:16
That and they’ll get the lobbyists from the tech companies that will just create policy that creates actually a moat around their business. We have this database, no one else can build a database like that, but we already have it.
Rudy Fernandez 24:29
Okay, let’s switch gears on that happy note. And talk about podcasting. Yeah, I mentioned at the top that we’ve created a podcast for clients before, but it wasn’t until you and I met at a Digital Summit, I think, and I learned about your podcast, you were like, “you can create one for yourself”. Really? So thank you for that. And it’s been a lot of fun. I’ve got to meet a lot of wonderful people. Talk to you more. So that’s cool. So you’ve been podcasting since March 2018, and what led you to podcasting?
Rob Kischuk 25:03
Failure to market well? Honestly, we had been trying to do a content marketing thing where we were on this cadence of cranking out two blog posts every single week. And looking at it not in the short, I’m not saying it didn’t work after a month. I’m saying after 18 months, we just really weren’t getting a better sense of what to do that would work or not work. What can we actually say that was new and interesting in the world. And as we started to calibrate more around the type of clients we were working with most, we said, Well, right now we’re making content that’s not interesting to anybody. So maybe we should start by making content that’s interesting to somebody. And we figured if we could make content featuring people who looked a lot like our clients, it would be interesting to them, their team, people who knew them and people who wanted to understand them. And so it really started there with a curiosity around the customer and an appreciation for the total range and diversity. I think it would be a mistake to only interview your customers and just talk about your product because that’s pretty boring. When we were able to see that it was relatively easy to create an engine of content that was interesting with people we wanted to talk to who were relevant to our business.
Rudy Fernandez 26:28
That really made it a lot easier to dive in deep. We saw just a matter of a few months, our website traffic went up 1200 percent. We’re had the podcast going for, you know, month or two. Yeah, it’s pretty incredible. So again, thanks. And why it appeals to me is I am super curious about everything.
Rob Kischuk 26:51
That’s the thing that’s hard to fake. If you fake that on a podcast. Yeah, people will hear and find you out.
Rudy Fernandez 26:57
What are some things you wish you knew about the podcast? Before you started,
Rob Kischuk 27:01
it’s given me an appreciation for process that I didn’t have before. I’m not by nature, a tremendously structured person. But if you want to get a podcast out every week, if you don’t have a process, it’s not going to happen. And so at different steps in time, and even to this day, I’m still adding in new layers of process and then trusting them to other people. It was also very helpful to listen to myself. Helpful and painful at the same time.
Rudy Fernandez 27:28
Yeah. I’ll have to credit Susan for creating the process and managing the process and because I’m very scattered.
Rob Kischuk 27:39
Yeah. You’re playing to your strengths.
Rudy Fernandez 27:41
Yeah. How’s it affected your business?
Rob Kischuk 27:45
I would say on probably three levels that come to mind. One is simply that I feel like we now have marketing content that I am proud to put out in the world that I think does well by what we do and our customers. At the second layer is something I didn’t quite expect. One thing that seems to happen is, when you’re putting this content out there, you are viewed as an expert and appear to your guests. So if I can give our guests a platform to feature them, and they do well, we’re also associated with them. Thirdly, and I am not a person who’s going to get somebody on a podcast, and then ask them to do a demo. But nonetheless, three of our guests have become customers now, and when you’re having a pre call a post call on someone says, well, Rob, what is it that you actually do? Number one, I’m kind of glad that they don’t know that because, in that case, they haven’t felt any secondary agenda. Even through the end of the interview. Yeah, that’s, that’s what we want. And if they asked me what we do, and I tell them and they’re genuinely interested, yeah, then I don’t think any harm has been done there. Because then we’re two people who are aware of each other helping each other.
Rudy Fernandez 29:03
Going back to what you said about being proud of something. I think we are too, we’re very proud of this. And mostly because not only are we learning as we talked to guess, we’re helping other people learn. And when you get someone who comments on, I got this from that podcast you did, I thought, wow, that that’s really cool. It’s hard to keep up in this business. And in talking to a lot of people who are in it every day, you either say, yeah, I’ve experienced that, or Oh, I didn’t know that. But I think the best compliment I’ve had is a few people who said, I heard it, I thought, well, I can write that down. All the changes going on in marketing, what are some things that you’re most excited about? Things you’re most concerned about?
Rob Kischuk 29:44
I think it does go back to some of those changes in privacy and permissions and regulation. And I think it’s a concern because people who can’t evolve with that are really going to be in a little bit of trouble. But I think the reason I’m excited as I am increasingly a believer that constraints give you creativity and freedom. Yeah, even Google is taking this direction. So historically, you have this long standing, search engine optimization cottage industry, people and products even that obsess over, how do you show up better in search? And you can say that Google may have some ulterior motives. Let’s set that aside for a moment. The way that Google search algorithm has continued to evolve is to say, how do you give people what they want? We have come very far away from some of the tricks. SEO is less and less about tricks and tactics and more about people. Yeah. And I think that constraint actually puts us in a position of more empathy for the people whose attention we’re trying to get. And so I think it’s a challenge and it’s exciting.
Rudy Fernandez 30:56
That’s a great answer. How do you get people with you what they want is pretty much should be the mantra of every business. Thanks very much. I really appreciate this, Rob.
Rob Kischuk 31:06
Thank you pleasure.
Rudy Fernandez 31:09
Thanks for listening to Marketing Upheaval from Creative Outhouse. To learn more about Converge and request a demo, visit ConvergeHQ.com. For show notes, previous episodes and previews to upcoming episodes, visit CreativeOuthouse.com/podcast and if you liked this podcast, give us five stars, subscribe and share it with your friends. Our producer is Susan Cooper. Special thanks to Gopal Swamy and Acoustech Music for creating our earcon. And Jason Shablik for his audio advice. That’s it for this episode of Marketing Upheaval. And remember if the current state of marketing has got you confused, don’t worry. It’ll all change. See ya.