Ep 30: Husani Oakley, Chief Technology Officer of Deutsch
How to create 21st century creative teams, the role of a technologist and how a diverse team is required for an agency’s survival.
Deutsch’s newly-minted Chief Technology Officer, Husani Oakley joins Marketing Upheaval to talk about how to create truly innovative teams, the role of a technologist on creative teams and has a great internal communications case study for AB Inbev. Husani is a brilliant and engaging guy and we want thank him for letting Marketing Upheaval be the first to talk to him after the announcement of his new position. This was a terrific episode.
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Husani Oakley Conversation
Hey everyone, this is Rudy Fernandez from Creative Outhouse. This episode with Husani Oakley really answered some nagging questions in my mind about how to structure teams. There are skill sets from the past that are still valuable in trying to solve client problems. But also a lot of times they’re not enough. Husani has created teams for the 21st century by going outside of our industry to create something that feels absolutely right for our modern world. I learned a lot from talking to him and I think you will too. Check it out. Welcome to Marketing Upheaval.
Rudy Fernandez 1:36
Welcome to Marketing Upheaval. My guest is Husani Oakley, the newly minted Chief Technology Officer at Deutsch in New York. Husani has founded startups, been Director of Technology at Wieden + Kennedy and others. He has been director of a dance studio, and to the White House to talk about LGBTQ and Tech has a background in music and along the way has helped brands like Nike, ESPN, AB InBev, Siemens, Delta and Target create innovative Technology. You know, just a regular guy. So as you might expect, we have a lot to cover. So thank you for joining me, Husani.
Husani Oakley 2:07
Thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to chat.
Rudy Fernandez 2:10
And congratulations on the recent promotion, by the way.
Husani Oakley 2:13
Thanks very much. Thank you.
Rudy Fernandez 2:15
Now you’ve had a varied career, lots of different experience. And I wanted to start with that your recent role: Director of Innovation that was your title before this new one. That title has sprung up a lot in recent years. And what does a Director of Innovation do?
Husani Oakley 2:31
It’s our job as a partner to our client is to help clients solve their business challenges. There are many ways to do that. You do that with storytelling, right? You do that with technology, whether that’s on the low pushing technology or sort of table stakes standard technology. You do that with artificial intelligence, you do that with core business strategy change, you do that with a bunch of different things. But one of those business challenges really centers around: How do brands live as brands in the new world that we live in? If you remember back when the internet and all things connected to it were called New Media. Now it’s just media, right? It’s when groups both brands and agencies had separate groups called a digital group. And now it’s just like the group. There are changes that have happened over the past 15 years that really lend us towards looking at solving business challenges in different ways. So we see innovation as a rigorous process by which we come up with solutions for our client partners that help them solve those new style business challenges. I say that rigorous processes, I think that’s a really important thing, in terms of how we consider innovation. It’s not, you know, three people with innovation in their title in a conference room. Like in front of a whiteboard smacking around ideas and then saying, Oh, look, we’ve got this innovation thing going now, right? There is a real data driven insight strategic process that forms the guardrails around where we are finding points to innovate to help solve these challenges, and then concepting around those innovation points.
Rudy Fernandez 4:20
How big are your teams when you concept?
Husani Oakley 4:22
We like to keep them small and tight and nimble. And they are certainly cross practice. So on an innovation team will have our amazing innovation lead, he runs the day to day of anything innovation, creative technologist, a designer, you know, it really depends on the specific line engagement and the area of business challenge we’re trying to innovate around. But we intentionally keep those teams tight for speed purposes. It’s better to have four people on the thing than 40 people on it.
Rudy Fernandez 4:55
Absolutely. I saw a talk of yours. It crystallized it for me because you pointed out in this talk that the old model for ad agencies, the people who did the concepting, were more valued than the people who made the things. So those people were at the table, the people the concept is, let’s say that the idea of people, which I think in the past probably made sense, because you kind of had an understanding of how things are made. But the technology that goes out the window, because you don’t really know what’s out there, what can be made, and now, bringing someone who understands the technology and who’s also creative at the table is essential.
Husani Oakley 5:33
Yeah, technology changes so quickly, both from a consumer product perspective and a hands-on engineering perspective. It’s the role of the technologists to keep up with those changes, not the role of the folks coming up with the concepts to keep up with every single day your new artificial intelligence module is released. Right? There’s a new way to think about how to store data in the cloud. And it’s great when you have the people whose job it is, which means it’s how their brains work and how their personalities work to be hands-on, brains-on in that technical change, bringing that to the table and working collaboratively with the people who are concepting. Not factory model, where concept is made written on a piece of paper, that baton is passed to the nerd basement where all the technologists live, who don’t understand why the concept is important to solve a client challenge or why a specific technology is appropriate for that specific creative concepts that solve the client’s challenge. When you’re doing true collaboration, you’ve got these subject matter experts in the room working together towards what you’re trying to do. It’s a much better way to structure teams.
Rudy Fernandez 6:45
Yeah, it sounds smart. Where does one find the technologists now? You said you find talent everywhere. And I think you’ve said look in places other people don’t. Where does one go to find a technologist?
Husani Oakley 6:56
Everywhere. So you’re right I as a philosophy, I believe that being a technologist, and if we define that as a person who writes code, that code is no different than a copywriter writing a script, or a sculptor or making a sculpture, or a painter, painting. It is an expression of an idea in a specific medium, and then medium that happens to be code. And creators’ brains tend to work the same way, regardless of the medium that they’re creating in. So I’m a huge fan of finding technologists who also do another thing; having another way they use their brain to create. I’ve hired technologists who are amazing musicians, or were amazing painters or sculptors or dancers, but they see technology as just another way to take what’s in their brain and make it into something that can be shared with another human being. And it just happens to be code. I look at schools, I look at not schools, I look online, I find amazing people on Twitter. They’re amazing Twitter group where you need to be a technologist to join the conversation. But once you do when you identify people just start chatting with them. And technologists, I think sometimes we have a bad reputation – that not being able to interact with human beings and be polite in an effective way. That’s really not true what the technologists are, we like people because we make things for people. So I have found that when I when I find really talented coders, but approaching them as a human being who also understands what they do for a living is a really nice way to begin a conversation about, Are you happy at your job? What are you up to do you think you’re fulfilled? How far away are your hands from the end product and if you want to get a little closer? Can we work in this team and we’ll make some great stuff together?
Rudy Fernandez 8:56
I love the coding as a medium because I was talking to a friend of mine who the director of an art museum. And I asked him, Do you think that if Monet were born today that he’d picked up a paintbrush and canvas? And he said, Absolutely not.
Husani Oakley 9:08
Yeah, you know what’s great about the early days of the consumer web, Flash, and flash being the, you know, core medium that a lot of technologists kind of got their start in? Yeah, there was a huge group of people who consider themselves artists, or designers or something other than being a coder. And they got their start with flash, because, you know, it was a visual medium, you were doing timeline animation, you were pointing and clicking you were you were translating what’s in your head into something interactive, but in a very visual way, not in a code writing way. But it was a great way for people who wouldn’t ever call themselves a technologist to begin to create. And a lot of those people, once Flash got a whole lot more technical. And there was code writing involved specifically ActionScript 2 and ActionScript 3, they realized that Oh, wait a second. There’s a whole nother way for me to create my art. And my goal is to create the art. My goal isn’t necessarily to learn the code for code sake, and then eventually became technologists.
Rudy Fernandez 10:12
So what are some of the cooler examples you think of these teams of creatives and strategists and technologists working together that you worked on?
Husani Oakley 10:23
So I think a really great example of how you can structure a team, run it through a rigorous innovation process and come out with something that actually solves the business challenge you first set out to solve is work that we recently did for AB InBev. So AB InBev is the world’s largest brewer, amazing brand. Over a quarter million employees across the globe, multiple languages, multiple cultures, multiple roles. It’s a huge massive organization. And they wanted a way to have every single employee across the world, no matter what their role is. Live beer and love beer. They’re the world’s largest Brewer. Right? Yeah. And that’s the sort of business challenge that you can solve in 10 different ways, right? You can set up mandatory classes for everyone, though those can be in person. And those can be via video chat, you could send out a bunch of really well designed PDFs that give top 10 things you should know about beer, right? There’s a million ways to kind of think about how to get a core bit of knowledge out to all these sort of different bits of people. So we put this challenge through our innovation process. And after quite a bit of research, quite a bit of speaking to various types of employees at AB InBev, we realized, even while at work, everyone’s on their smartphone, even if you’re not supposed to be. Even if you work in the brewery and not in an office. At some point you’re glancing at your phone. And that insight is what drove us to a technology specific Solve. And that solve was a mobile app called Hoppy.
And the phrase we like to use internally to kind of describe it in shorthand, is corporate education for the smartphone generation. So Hoppy is an ecosystem. It’s not just an act, it’s a large thing. The quick summary is there is an app where there are bite sized pieces of content that are engaging, because they’ve been specifically written for the form factor. And instead of, you know, linking to a Wikipedia entry, essentially, we rewrote that content to fit the form factor, to fit this piece of glass that you have in your hand that you glance at multiple times a day. So you don’t need 30 paragraphs, you need three paragraphs, right. We took cues from other technology driven learning systems and essentially made what I call like modern flashcards. So there are there are quizzes that are very visual at the end of each of these sections of content. And you can take the quizzes over and over and over again, as you use this app, where we’re obviously tracking everything that you’re doing for a number of reasons, but one of those big reasons is the gamification layer. So as you continue reading content and answer quizzes, you’re getting badges. You’re earning a crypto currency called beercoin, leading into the very interestingly competitive culture that is a core part of who AB InBev is. We put leaderboards across various offices and breweries. People could, you know, run quizzes against each other and find out who their department knew more about beer as you use the app more and more and more. That’s the sort of concept that we only got to because of a cross functional team, a core group of people and running it through a very specific innovation process that lead us towards a result
Rudy Fernandez 13:59
And then gives them something that’s inherent to the brand, gives them something, you know, closer tied to their company because they start to learn more things that they sell and more confident because they are learning more about it.
Husani Oakley 14:10
Exactly. And then the next time they’re in a bar with their friend, yeah, they can say, Hey, you know what, let’s get Budweiser. And here’s why. Yeah, interesting things I learned, right? Yeah, yeah, it makes everybody an evangelist for the brands that they already should be an evangelist for.
Rudy Fernandez 14:26
Yeah, that’s great.
Husani Oakley 14:27
That moment where you stand in the bar, and you know, something that but your friends don’t necessarily know, we thought that was a really interesting moment, this concept of bridging online and offline. So as part of earning beercoin, we had it full ecommerce system where you could spend that beercoin to get swag that was branded around this entire movement to live beer. So if you had a certain amount of your coin, you could buy a really cool t shirt that has a great logo on it that says “We’re here for the beer”. You know, it’s like getting a varsity jacket back in high school because you’re on the football team, or in my case, the marching band, you know, you want to be proud of that moment, and people really just went in and the amount of your credit was earned was super high. But people emptied their beer coin accounts, earning the swag, it was really a sight to see.
Rudy Fernandez 15:18
That is pretty cool. I they probably won’t, because it obviously is working as a great internal device. But I could also see that working externally as well.
Husani Oakley 15:26
Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that we thought a lot about was exactly that. So even from a technical architecture perspective, how can we structure this so it is scalable to that so, you know, depending on its success, we ran it as a as a pilot, and then it expanded globally. You know, early on, we saw this was getting such traction, we realized, okay, great. We thought about the possibility of that and built out the infrastructure to be able to support that so that if that decision is made, we don’t need to spend X amount of months and X amount of dollars with X amount of reworking of the entire system, now we can switch a couple of things. And you know, you still have to think about the interaction going from employee to mass consumer. But the technical underpinnings are already there, just in case.
Rudy Fernandez 16:13
This whole idea of having the technologists in the room is just wonderful, because I probably in that situation, somebody or another said something about a beer contest or what have you. And you had to, the technologist had to continually check in and say, we can’t do that. But we can do this and I could see all that happening to make sure that what you recommend is viable.
Husani Oakley 16:31
Exactly. Another great example of that, and this came from one of the technologists on the team: In this moment of figuring ways to bridge online and offline. We came up with the concept of beer code, and it’s like a QR code, but it looks cooler than a QR code. It’s more like a Spotify code or a snap code. And managers can log into an admin system and make their own internal events and print out a Beer code. And any employee who comes to the event can scan that beer code and earn beercoin for showing up to an event. So you wouldn’t do that for like a mandatory Monday morning meeting, right. But you can do that for any other sort of interesting extracurricular event that again tries the purpose of the app to drive culture around loving beer and living beer. That idea came up because of a technologist having an insight into where camera scanning tech is now and being familiar with a great company who’s responsible for most of the snap codes and Spotify codes that exist in the world. And we were able to contact them and use part of their tech to build into the app and ecosystem that never would have happened if a tech person were not in the room.
Rudy Fernandez 17:43
You speak a lot about diversity and creating diverse teams. And in those conversations, you’ve mentioned that there are pockets of society that act as birthplaces of culture. What do you mean by that?
Husani Oakley 17:55
So within the past couple of weeks, there’s been an interesting news story that that’s come up about a dance that is huge on TikTok right now. And turns out that there was a 14 year old black girl in Atlanta who originally created the dance, but kind of nobody knew it, except for small groups who are familiar with the areas of the internet that our sub TikTok, right, if you think of how we all tend to think that cultural moments or cultural memes bubbled up from the ether, that is the internet, you know, down the very bottom, you’ve got sort of a question mark. But then you’ve kind of got the Reddit of the world and the TikToks of the world and eventually it kind of goes up to Instagram and Twitter. By the time is lived in Twitter for a while, brands begin to notice it. Agencies begin to notice it on behalf of brands, and then it kind of gets supercharged and into mass consciousness. There are places that exist that are very under the radar and this very specific example of the Renegade dance. And the 14 year old girl from Atlanta who came up with that dance. She did it on an app called Dubsmash. Dubsmash is I would put that under TikTok on that line of how cultural bubbles up from this cauldron. That is, that is cultural appropriation on the internet. And you know who’s on Dubsmash? Young black kids are on the right, they know it. You find a 13 year old black kid from anywhere in this country and you say Dubsmash and I’ll say yeah, here’s my account. I just made these 27 different dances it’s an entire community in and of itself. When thinking about diversity in general, I asked, you know, does the average non diverse agency team know what Dubsmash is? No, of course not. So maybe if we begin to create teams that were reflective of the society that we all live in, and reflective of the consumers that we at agencies and our clients brands want to communicate with and interact with and engage those two groups of sort of look like each other.
Rudy Fernandez 20:10
How do you know you built the right team? That’s diverse enough? Other than, you know, cultural and other types of diversity? How do you know that that is that enough to keep your finger on the pulse of what’s happening?
Husani Oakley 20:25
When I use the word diversity, I have two separate meanings. Meaning one is actual diversity of all kinds. Right? And that is diversity of thought, diversity of experience. I even mean diversity of practice, like we’re talking about technologists and creatives and strategists all being together that that that is a very real meaning to the word diversity. But I also mean, race, and gender and LGBTQ and age and disability status and economic class and backgrounds and area of countries. Those topics that even in an era where we know these topics are meaningful to our businesses make us uncomfortable to say out loud, but we have to say them out loud so we can have the conversation and answer your question, which is a valid one. How do we know when we put together a team? At what point can we say? That’s it? This is the solve. Certainly when one of the reasons to build out a diverse team is to have those brains coming from different places, with different experiences and being familiar with different things like for example Dubsmash. I think having different people in the room is enough as a first pass, to get to the actual: Where is culture being made? And getting in there and finding things. I think you’ve got to be very quant and qual about it. What research our strategy teams doing, what researcher media teams doing, what restarts are creators doing and we’ve got to be pretty active in our diverse teams, looking for those things, finding those things, and then listening to the bits of culture that come out of those things.
Rudy Fernandez 22:10
I could use some tutorial on all the things out there, to be honest with you. It’s great. And that’s what’s fun about it, right? Because it changes all the time. And each of the platforms have their own really unique cultures and unique cultures, have unique norms. Someone recently had referred to it our consumption of media as our media tunnel. We are fed what we’ve looked at before, but unless you have a diverse group that lives in a different media tunnel, you’re not going to know what else is going on in the world.
Husani Oakley 22:47
Yeah, and the, the algorithms haven’t exactly set us up for success in getting out of our media tunnels or media bubbles either, right?
Rudy Fernandez 22:56
I was going to talk about AI, you said that it’s the latest toy and by that I take it you mean that people think that it’s a tool and a complete solution? How do you think people are misusing or not understanding AI’s strengths and weaknesses?
Husani Oakley 23:12
I think non technologists don’t fully understand what artificial intelligence is. And that drives most of its weaknesses. It’s just math. Right? It’s complicated math to be to be fair, but it really is just math. It’s not alive. It’s not magic. It’s not a magic box that you ask a question. And it magically knows the answer, right? Machine learning only works because there have been algorithms created by super smart mathematicians that analyze for patterns in data. And AI is amazing because it can analyze data for those patterns at a scale and a speed that that is physically impossible for the human brain to do. But to get the machine learning algorithm to that point, you have to train it with data at the core of how an algorithm works is the structure of the training data that was set it when it was being created. Data is a representation of things as they are not necessarily as they should be. So if we have a data set that is biased, and by that I mean, not necessarily reflective of reality, but reflective of a certain period of time or certain situation, when you train an algorithm on that data, the output of the algorithm will also be biased.
Rudy Fernandez 24:43
What are some common ways you think that misconception manifests itself?
Husani Oakley 24:48
Let’s say there’s an algorithm that can look at how a person uses an e-commerce website. That person then buys something from an e-commerce platform. You’ve trained it with data from 400,000 other users who have bought things or didn’t buy things, but when you haven’t paid attention to the other bits of information that made that initial training data set valid, like well, is it mobile? Is it desktop? Is there another reason why 200,000 people didn’t buy? Was there an issue with price? Was there an issue with shipping? There could be other reasons why a person doesn’t convert other than what the data suggests. That this data has no way to ever know. Thus, the algorithm has no way to ever know when we replace human brains who do understand context, and have the capability to independently go find that context and place decisions in a contextual framework, we’ve replaced those brains with algorithms, we put ourselves in very sticky situations.
Rudy Fernandez 25:54
I pointed out at the beginning of this episode: You’ve done a lot of different things. You’ve tried startups and you’re in theater and art and technology. There’s so many things you’ve tried. In some of your talks and writings, you’ve talked about embracing failure, which I love. As someone who loves pep talks, please talk to me and everybody, anybody who’s listening about taking risks and embracing failure, what that means to you.
Husani Oakley 26:24
I mess up early and often. But I don’t worry about those 17 and a half mistakes that I’ve made that day and I’ve tried to have that core philosophy in my head every day of my career. And mainly because being wrong is just as instructive and oftentimes more instructive than being right. Because either way, it illuminates the path forward. It illuminates where you should go or where you shouldn’t go and an Idea is meaningless if it stays in your head. And the only way to get the idea out of your head is to try something. Is to make something, is to put your ego on the line and write a thing, build the thing, paint a thing, cook a thing and put it in front of another human being. And then say, what do you think? Yay? Nay? Right? And and if it’s Yay, you then are able to recognize the pattern of how you got to that right answer and apply that moving forward. And if the answer is Nay, you can do the same. You say, oh, okay, I shouldn’t think of things that way. I should add a little more salt the next time. Okay, got it. The more information, the more feedback about how you’re making things in the world, all the feedback matters. So failure is just a different type of feedback, even when and for the earlier part of this conversation, even when decisions are made, empowered by algorithms that are empowered by data and context. Sometimes it’s still a crapshoot. But it’s a crapshoot worth playing. Because you don’t know the end result until you try it. I know that’s hard. Like that’s putting yourself out on the line like that, like all day, every day is really challenging. And it’s, it’s exhausting, but I simply don’t know how else anybody has ever created anything.
Rudy Fernandez 28:22
Yeah. Well, as someone who creates and make stuff for a living, it’s been a career of, you know, about 99 out of 100 things you do, they die, and that one thing, it’s changed.
Husani Oakley 28:37
And you don’t know what those 99 are going to be until the 99 exist. You have to keep putting it out, and putting it out, and putting it out when we’re talking about artistic work. And we’re talking about I mean career decisions, and we’re talking about creative work and brand work. You have to get pen to paper or your medium of choice and get ideas out of your head and out the door. You also have to keep in mind, does this failure hurt me? Does this failure hurt me and multiple people? And what’s the level of that hurt? Because at a certain point, failures, yet a certain point, you want to kind of back up and say, wait a second, let me actually rethink making this thing. But not all the time. It’s rare, in fact that the risk that you take is going to be the worst thing to ever happen, or it’s going to cause lasting damage to a thing. Mostly we’re talking about the things we make for a living and we can make those things for a living without being willing to or eager to deal with, with the potential failures of us putting work in the world.
Rudy Fernandez 29:41
Is there a point where you know that it’s just a setback or time to bail?
Husani Oakley 29:46
I think, you know, what do you think when you’re laying in bed at night, and it’s two o’clock in the morning and you’re staring at the ceiling? You might not ever say it out loud, but in your gut, you know, and I think the trick is, I think because, I haven’t quite figured this out myself, is when your gut speaking, or is it your fear speaking? And you know the difference? It’s hard sometimes to admit the difference to yourself.
Rudy Fernandez 30:12
I love that. Is it your gut speaking or is it your fear speaking? I love that. So you’re at the forefront of change in our business, which ones do you think will have the biggest impact coming up here in the next year or two?
Husani Oakley 30:22
I love the fact that what we’ve talked about, within this conversation about being cross discipline and diverse people working together to solve a problem. You know, I’ve been shouting to the rooftops for years and years and years and years and years. But as people from outside this industry came in, people who were in startup environments, and then came over to advertising or people who were out of technology schools or art schools, but I would give them my whole spiel on breaking down the silos. They look at me and they say, What are you talking about? That’s a thing? How do you people even get any work done? That, that made me feel so good. It made me realize, okay, we’ve got this amazing fresh talent, fresh blood, fresh brains coming into this industry. And they are going to continue to look at us that people have been around for a while and say, why are you doing it like that? Do it like this. And if we’re smart, we will continue to listen. And I am so thrilled as to what that means for us as an industry, for our clients and for consumers. People who get the messages that we put out in the world, it’s exciting to me.
Rudy Fernandez 31:36
The strength of your message is not you should have diverse groups because it’s the right thing to do, or even, It’s the smart thing to do. I think the message is, if you don’t, you are not going to succeed. You’re not going to exist in a few years.
Husani Oakley 31:51
That’s right. You know, it is the right thing to do. And but it is it’s beyond a karma level. It’s your business. And if You don’t, you’re finished. Yeah, this is 2020. We know. And we’ve known it for a very long time. And eventually, if you haven’t gotten this deep down in your DNA, like everything else should be, you can’t be effective.
Rudy Fernandez 32:12
What are the changes you see happening that excite you the most and which ones concern you the most?
Husani Oakley 32:17
I start with concern. And this also may sound strange coming from a technologist, I build this work, and I’m in this industry, because I love storytelling. I remember being a kid. And that there, I can tell you that three TV spots that here between, you know, ‘85 and ‘92, that made me think, oh, wait a second, I want to at least be in the environment where that work is made, because that’s amazing to me, and I’m going to be there. So I’ve always kept strong brand, strong, creative, solid storytelling at the core of what I personally do and care about. On the other hand, data driven, dynamic creative performance marketing data numbers driven work is critical. I am scared when I have conversations with other people in other various places in this industry who think that it has to be one or the other. The power is telling strong stories with a foot in brilliant creative and a foot in data driven inside performance marketing, combining those two is what excites me. Separating those two is what frightens me but the more people separated, the more I think there’s an opportunity for the shops like us that are doing it right.
Rudy Fernandez 33:45
Yeah. Any patterns you see happening that that you think give you hope and excites you for the future?
Husani Oakley 33:50
It excites me when fresh blood comes in. A lot of that fresh blood is not coming in. A lot of fresh blood going to other places because they look at our industry and they think Will I fit in there? Do I belong there? Yes, you will fit in. Yes, you do fit in and you can have an impact directly on work sooner in your career, than perhaps you can at a large platform. Certainly as a creative, as a developer, you can get your hands dirty on a real work that real human beings will see really quickly. And it makes me really happy when I see and convince people from the outside to like, come on in the water’s fine. I find it so enjoyable and exciting.
Rudy Fernandez 34:31
Yeah, that’s, that is pretty cool. I hadn’t thought about that. Husani, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure.
Husani Oakley 34:37
That was fun. That was awesome. Cool.
Rudy Fernandez 34:40
Thanks for listening. You can follow Husani on Twitter @husaniOakley, that’s @husaniOakley. If you want to show notes, or previous episodes visit www.creativeouthouse.com/podcast. Tell you what, hit the Contact Us button and tell us what you think of the show. Special thanks to the one and only Susan Cooper for producing the show. Thanks to Gopal Swami for creating our earcon. Jason Shablik for his audio advice. That’s it for this episode of Marketing Upheaval. And remember, if the current state of marketing’s got you confused, don’t worry, it’ll all change. See ya.
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