Episode 37: John Wall from Marketing Over Coffee on Finding a Story in Your Data

Hey folks, this is Rudy Fernandez from Creative Outhouse. So how you been?

Yeah, me too. But hey, here’s a positive observation about the last two months. Look how fast the world took action. And not just leaders. But all of us. We united and took action together on a dime. Everyone’s behavior changed because it was the right thing to do. That’s just one of the observations from my guest, John J. Wall. He has some great insights into what we’re all experiencing. He also shared some secrets about how to look at all that data you’re collecting.

Before we start, I wrote a piece about improving your SEO and here’s the cool thing about it. I’m not an SEO expert. Okay, that’s not a good sell. Okay, here’s what I did. I wrote a piece using the basic rules of SEO that our advisors gave us. And in the process, the blog instructs you on how to write a piece that will improve your SEO, Get it? It’s meta, Whatever. It’s fun and informational. So check it out at CreativeOuthouse.com/blog. Anyway, you’re gonna love this conversation with the super insightful John J. Wall. Welcome to Marketing Upheaval.

John J. Wall on Digital Marketing

Welcome to Marketing Upheaval. My guest is John J. Wall. John is a partner at Trust Insights, a marketing analytics and data company that helps marketers collect data and measure their digital marketing. John’s also the co host and producer of Marketing Over Coffee, one of the top marketing podcasts on the planet. John speaks frequently about machine learning and AI. And his podcast has been featured in Forbes API. One day when our podcast goes up, we want it to be just like his. So thanks for joining us, John.

Why Words Matter

So I do want to talk about AI. But first I want to talk about a piece you wrote recently, called The Great Shutdown. It’s about the current COVID-19 health crisis. And you brought up this notion that words matter, and pointed out how we need to describe this economic downturn and how we describe it matters. Can you tell me more about that?

John:
Yeah, sure. And I’m so excited that you brought that up, because I put that out about a week ago. And I was surprised it kind of hasn’t really gotten any traction. Then suddenly, this week, people have started to read it and and find it. But yeah, there were two big things that hit me on that. One is that this downturn that we’re facing right now is really unique. I mean, it’s, it’s frightening and terrifying because it is an economic hit. And it’s kind of classic recession, and some people talking about depression. But there’s a change in that this is the first one of these that we’re going through that’s not caused by Wall Street shenanigans and greed. You know, the last three or four of these have been the real estate market getting too greedy, the savings and loans not being smart enough to save themselves. It’s all the way back to the depression, which was just, you know, pyramid scheme stocks. This time, we’ve decided that we’re going to try and save lives, and we’re going to shut things down to help people survive and get through this. So that struck me is really unique.

And then thinking more about that, I was thinking about how to talk about it, I ran into an article over on the New York Times. In some ways, it’s a terrible article. And my background is in economics. And so I kind of enjoyed getting into numbers, and it was talking about, what is the dollar figure that we actually put on a human life? Because unfortunately, this is where we decide to do these kinds of things. We say, okay, we can save X number of lives by shutting down this much of the economy, but we can also lose lives from suicide, drug abuse, domestic abuse from people that are locked in their houses, like all this stuff. And the big takeaway from that article, though, that got me was there was a section in there that talked about how the EPA was valued. In the lives of senior citizens, and they had come to a point where they said, if a neighborhood is filled with senior citizens, that really should be discounted. Like, we’re not willing to spend as much to save that plot of land, because those people are only going to be, maybe they’re already out of the workforce even. Whereas if it was a bunch of kids, they’ve got 30 years of taxes ahead of them to pay.

The real key was, in words matter. They said, discounting senior citizens, and that is just a complete disaster to say that because in the US, you know, seniors vote, whereas if they had said we’re willing to pay a premium to save children, they would have rolled it right through with no problem. Every senior would want to save their grandchildren. So that idea of words matter and us thinking of this, as I call it, the great shutdown, because it’s not a recession, and it’s not the depression. It’s us, you know, shutting it down. And it’s kind of a neat flip of the words is that it could be great as in this could be one of the most amazing things we’ve done. As humans. So yeah, that’s a hell of a long story. But thanks for letting me get into it.

Rudy:
I love that because the packaging does matter.

John:

Yeah, absolutely a big part of it. And this goes straight through to so much marketing is people just get enamored with their product. It’s like baby pictures. They’re like, hey, look, here’s what we built. And they don’t forget that the story you want to tell is like, I built this. Take this sword and take the castle. The story is you taking the castle,

Existential Questions of the Economy

Rudy:

You said, this particular downturn, whatever we’re calling it is, is different in that it’s about saving lives. And then you start to see stories. And people start to ask themselves, well, where’s the balance between I need a job, and I don’t want to kill other people or die or you know, what lives versus jobs? And I’m watching those debates just start to grow online more and more. And it’s an existential question. That’s why I loved your article. It brought up that existential question.

John:
Yeah. huge piece of that is, yes, we are business and business does work for us and the free market works. But there’s such disparity. You can look at the overall numbers and you can say, Well, if the wealth had been spread around a little bit more, everybody could have a month or two of padding. And it could be very different. But because so much wealth is just packed up at the top, we’ve got a lot of people down at the bottom or being without a job for two or three months can become life threatening. Hopefully, this will get us to think about ways of getting around that.

Rudy:
And it also is a very clear message. We all live on the same floating Marvel and we really can’t escape each other and the plight of other people does affect us.

John:
Yeah, and there are a lot of bright lights with that too. Stuff that’s been shared across countries as far as data flowing around and people taking care of each other.

We have the data. What next?

Rudy:
I want to talk about data and AI, because that’s your area of expertise. We have access to more and more data on every person. And you have someone like me, who gets easily overwhelmed by the sheer amount of it, and what’s available and how to make sense of it. What’s a good principle on how to view data, how to filter it, how to approach it, how to make sense of it with? Is there a good overall principle that you have?

John:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And it does kind of frame things up, and that a lot of people are concerned about that they’re overwhelmed by how much data is out there? And what am I supposed to do with it? And really, the way to look at it is to turn it around. And it’s all about what am I supposed to do next? You know, what do I think is going on in the business? How can I prove that or disprove that with the data? And what do I do next?

That’s always been a driving force for us is that the data needs to tell you what you need to do next. I mean, that’s the important thing. As far as managing data and the kind of places to start, we always start with Google Analytics for our clients just because it’s free. So nearly everybody’s using it. And pretty much everybody has a web component that’s driving leads and customers or whatever. So it’s just Hey, get all that data in one place and be able to look at it and start to get an idea for like, okay, when does most of the traffic come in? And why does it come in there? And the big one for us is everybody usually has it turned on. But do they have goals?

Setting Goals with Web Analytics

That’s the first thing. You can set up to 20 goals. And so you can set checkpoints and you can say, Okay, so here’s the folks that signed up for our newsletter. Here’s the folks that made it to the pricing page. Here’s the people that made it to the demo page. Here’s a shopping cart abandoned. Once you start tagging all those points where your customer is walking through all these gates, you start to get to that actionable info. But yeah, you don’t need to download our studio and learn Python and you know, start grabbing terabytes of data and try and figure out what to do. You start small with hypothesis and prove it with the data you’ve got. And then you just kind of keep building from there.

Qualifying Clients for Machine Learning

Rudy:
What stage in terms of sophistication do clients come to you? Is there a type of client that is more inclined to go with you guys?

John:
Yeah, for us, you know, at Trusted Sites. It’s usually a marketer that’s running a bunch of programs, and maybe they have a team of about three to five employees. Well, it can be from one to five, but they’re not to the point where they’re gonna spend $250,000 a year to get a data scientist on staff, but they do have all these programs. They’re saying, okay, we’re spending $1-2 million a year on marketing programs, what’s actually working? With better clients, they at least have their analytics set up with goals. So they can say like, okay, these programs are pushing leads through the pipe. And we know that we want to spend most of our money on this, because that’s what brings in the lion’s share of revenue.

But eventually, they reach a point where they want to be able to get a better picture of that. And so a good example, is to do a full attribution analysis. Instead of just looking at Google and saying, like, Okay, this program drove 35 leads, and we know that 25% of them close, so it’s worth that to actually take all your web traffic and run it through a machine learning algorithm. So that you can say Oh, here’s the 25 different things that we’re doing. These are the five that always come up at the top. And you can even prove them. It’s not enough that a certain marketing program is always in the chain from first inquiry to sale. It’s if you pull that out of the chain, does it make a difference? Not only are they correlated, but is there causation, you know? And ultimately, even past causation, you find out, can you force it. If we do whatever we can to hammer people through this extra program, and we promote it and publicize it, will that actually drive the business up? And so, doing more analysis on that, that’s a big part of it.

What the heck is a “cheese forecast”?

The other one that’s most exciting for everybody is the predictive, where we look at your past five years worth of data and what’s going on and all the topics and then be able to project forward a year. A good example is we have this thing we do called the cheese forecast, because we have a lot of food clients, but nobody wants to share their data. So we came up with a generic data set of cheese. And we can say, okay, it’s June, you need to have a couple blog posts and a video about halloumi. Because if you didn’t know that, halloumi me is a fantastic grilled cheese. And so I didn’t know what it was, I didn’t know what halloumi was before this report. And so this is the kind of thing that shines the light on.

You realize that if you do a halloumi blog post or a video in October, it’s not going to do anything for you. But if you have it queued up in June, now in July and August, when people are looking at cheeses to grill, halloumi is gonna make the cut. And so doing that kind of predictive stuff is is great and can give you a real edge on your content calendar. And you know, when you’re going to drop blog posts, instead of just doing the Oh, we need seven posts a month, you can look and say, okay, you know, the seven posts this month has to be on these three topics because these are the things that are going to pop next month.

Rudy:
Wow, I guess it’s a pretty long process to explain. But how did you arrive at that predictive model? By studying patterns?

John:
Yeah, a bunch of the search engine tools, can get some interesting data. Google Trends is also good. Chris Penn, my partner at Trust Insights, has done a lot of work on being able to take data where they don’t give you actual figures, they only give you relative figures. But then if you get enough data, you can, make that map back to actual numbers that you can work on. But then there’s the whole layer of external data to the Google Trends data and looking at all the social networks to see what peaks and doesn’t peak. And when it does, marrying that internal with the external data to try and get even more insight is just a huge opportunity that a lot of organizations don’t have the time, money or resources or whatever.

Creating Content Calendars Based on AI

Rudy:
Do you have ways of compiling and measuring? Which I guess many of those are automated? At what point in the process do humans come in and find the insights?

John:
We generate an actual calendar for them. It prints right out like Week 1: here’s the four topics. So they have a sheet that they can just run with and create. Another similar thing is we do a lot of content curation, where you can tell us the topics that you watch. Normally, the marketing department has a newsletter where it’s one piece of their content and three pieces of whatever’s hot in the industry that week. And we can go through and say, Okay, here’s the five pieces of content from these publications that you watch. These are the ones that were most shared, and hit whatever keywords you’re looking for. And so we’re able to just dump them off a file. And in some cases, they can upload that right into their social stack, and not have to have somebody sitting there, typing out the next month’s worth of Twitter posts. They can just upload the file and have that ready to go. Everything we do, does eventually get handed off to the marketing expert. We’re going to give you some knowledge about your marketplace or whatever you’re doing that you couldn’t get any other way but it still comes back to you to now make the decisions Okay, what direction are you going to go? And how are you going to make that stuff work for you.

Using Social Media Data to Optimize Ad Spend

Rudy:
So what’s a good example of a client that does this? Well, it takes their data and in and maybe it went from not doing well to doing it well. What changes did they make?

John:
We do a lot of work with a number of churches. And they were looking at their ad spend, and they said, Look, we want to just do better with our ad spend. Can we get another 20% out of this? And so we ran a bunch of analysis against a sample set of their members. We stripped out all the personally identifiable info, but we had enough so that we could track kind of where they are, what social communities they hang out in. And a correlation we found was dog owners. So the fact that for whatever reason, people that go to this church also tend to be dog owners or like to hang out with people who are dog owners. And so instead of just doing a generic ad spend within a certain geographic area to try and find new church members, they could segment it. On Facebook, you can easily segment by likes, dislikes, bands you listen to, whatever, but just by throwing dog lovers in there and dog communities, now you’re looking at 1/20th of the overall niche. And for the same amount of spend, you could increase 20 or 30% what you’re doing. And so, yeah, to get a better picture of who your customers are, allows you to segment across all these different ad channels. And it’s just putting money back in your pocket.

Rudy:
How did you get to the dog owner or dog lover thing? How did you get to that?

John:
Yeah, their Facebook activity, and this stuff is always moving with Facebook. Reddit is funny too, because this stuff is always changing. Like we can’t get the same kind of insight out of Facebook that we used to a year and a half ago. They’ve throttled down on a number of things. Then it depends how much data about the customers they have too because you know, in some circumstances, you can only get a name or an email address where in other circumstances people are willing to do a focus group and share your internet history. So we can actually see kind of see where you go to. So it’s just a matter of how much internal data you can get out of it, because that can really make a difference.

Common Missteps with Machine Learning

Rudy:
So that’s one example. What are some common missteps that people make?

John:
The biggest risk is just that you run a bunch of machine learning and you don’t learn anything. You know, we found out that like, okay, for the people that buy oat milk, the only thing we can find in common is that they buy oat milk.

What is artificial intelligence really?

Rudy Fernandez 16:34
And that’s as far as it goes. I was listening to one of your talks, once you were talking about how we say AI, but it really, it’s in our lives. We don’t we don’t call it AI. We may call it a search engine, for example. Same with the word data, I think we say data but really mean what is the behavior? Would you say that’s accurate?

John:
Yeah, definitely, you know, “artificial intelligence” the term has been around since 1956, right? I mean, yes, academia came up with that. And pretty much now it gets used for whatever we think computers can do about three to seven years from now. The thing that we’re talking about today is artificial intelligence that’s just on the rise. Because Yeah, the search engines, there is a perfect example. You know, 20 years ago, people were talking about using artificial intelligence to read everything on the web. And yeah, now we just call that search engines.

Rudy:
Yeah. Or autocorrect. Or whatever.

John:
Right? Totally. And transcription software. Yeah, all that stuff was at one point AI. I play fast and loose with the term data, I just say data and kind of throw it out there. And yeah, there’s really a huge difference between data and information and wisdom. Yes, three important divisions there that would put the behavior as information. You know, it’s not just all the raw stuff. It’s like, okay, no, this person on this day during this time, that’s information that we can do something with.

True But Useless

Rudy:
I used to work with a Planner and we’d do all these sort of charts and write, different features or whatever we’re working on. And then every now and then he’d put a little TPU by something, which meant True But Useless. I wish when I looked at my Google Analytics, it would have these little TBU markers. Ignore it and keep moving on.

John:
I wish you could sort by TBU. Yeah. Another one that people and I had many, many years ago, data scientists, like straighten me out on this, because I would use data mining all the time. You have data exploration, where you look at everything. And then you have data mining, where you’re drilling, but you’re looking for specific stuff. And then you have data farming, where you already know it’s there and you’re churning. That’s that’s a focusing of the thing.

Rudy:
I’ve never heard of data farming. I love that.

John:
Oh, yeah. So that’s the best way you’ve like proven the model and you’re just like, we know that we run this spreadsheet through every month, we’ll get five leads. And it always happens, or if it doesn’t happen, it’s the one time of year we knew it wouldn’t kind of thing.

Messaging in a Category

Rudy:
How much of your job is explaining the category of what you do? As opposed to people saying I need this and you’re really good at this.

John Wall 19:16
That’s almost my entire job. Completely nailed it. People, they come to us like, okay, we think we want to find more info on this, like, what can we do? And yes, so much of it is like, Okay, well, here’s the stuff that we do. And a big part of it is like, okay, yeah, you’re all excited about predictive. That’s way up here. We need to make sure that your Google Analytics works. Right now all the data is just garbage and we can’t do anything. And so a lot of it is stepping down to like, Okay, well, what do we have to turn on first to be able to see the picture?

The Marketing Over Coffee Podcast

Rudy:
So I want to talk about Marketing Over Coffee. You started in 2007. Before the more recent podcasts explosion that we’re all experiencing, what are some things you’ve seen changed in the last 13 years?

John:
I mean, the original idea behind the podcast was, when I go out to a cocktail party or it’s Thanksgiving and the family’s all around the table, like, nobody wants to hear about SEO or what’s going on in marketing automation. Their eyes glaze over. And that’s the end of it. And by doing this podcast, we were able to talk about the stuff that we thought was fun and cool at work and share results and, and build this community. One is it’s just funny. Last year, I did the Marketing Over Coffee Playbook. I took a couple years worth of shows and we got the best content and put it into a book. And I was amazed to see how more than half of what we do is so topical that it’s gone. And so when I look back to the first, you know, five years of the show, like that’s all pretty much in the trash bin. Nobody cares about that secret trick to get your MySpace profile twice as much traffic. That’s totally not doing anything. And the other huge one was that moment when NPR did the Serial podcast and podcasting kind of exploded. We’re getting on like four years since that was that happened. Because we were kind of like on a steady 10% year over year growth. 10 to 20% every year. But then suddenly that year, there was a couple years where it was like 30-40% growth in a single year.

Rudy:
I would agree, I think Serial was the turning point. Have you made any adjustments to the show?

John:
No, it’s been the same thing. And it would be one author or more overall topic, and we’ve kind of switched to just alternating every week. And I just love that a great part of the show has been getting access to people like Seth Godin and Simon Sinek. And yeah, David Meerman Scott, and all these folks. So to be able to talk with those folks and ask them the questions I want. You know, verybody gets excited about the show, but it’s really like, Oh, my God, I get a half hour to like, pick their brains about the stuff I want to talk about. People pay thousands to do that. But I get to do it for free on the show.

Rudy:
Yeah. Like I’m getting free Google Analytics advice.

John:
Yes, right. Right. We’re giving you some some data action that you can jump on. The big goal is always educate and entertain. That’s really just to sum up the whole show. It’s like, let’s talk about cool stuff. But you know, also, keep it funny. Keep it interesting so that people feel that their time is well spent.

Rudy Fernandez 22:11
Some of your shows are sort of general marketing, Simon Sinek, Seth Godin, but some are about chat marketing or VR media monitoring. How do you pick your topics and guests?

John Wall 22:24
It’s maybe our kryptonite, maybe the biggest mistake, but I just put out there whatever I think is interesting. And yeah, what the audience will want to hear about. Now and then it goes way off topic. I mean, there is an episode in there with the guy that produces Live from Darryl’s House, Darryl Hall, had this TV show. I met the producer and got to talk to him about how they make the show. The cool part with marketing is that you know, marketing is a fantastic career because you have everything from hardcore statistical analysis to full on artists making paintings and illustrations. I mean, there’s the whole realm. So pretty much anything artistic, or technology. There’s going to be some fans that are into one thing or another. Maybe every show is not for everybody, but people are free to skip and jump around and sample. So yeah, I just kind of keep putting out there what I think is cool to read about and hopefully the rest of the world comes along for the ride.

Rudy:
Yeah, it is a neat profession. I mean, I always think I get paid to learn stuff, which is amazing to me. And like you said, you know, there’s all this a whole broad range from very analytical to let’s hire a sidewalk artist for this next thing. Which we’re about to do, by the way.

John:
Yeah, and some of that stuff is amazing.

Podcasting and Business Development

Rudy:
You have sponsors, how does it help Trust Insights with business development?

John:
Yeah, it’s been crazy in that some months will run and more than half the new business is folks that know about us from the podcast. I mean, it’s just a huge lead generation thing for us. And in fact, it was really a side gig for me. Until about two years ago Chris and I both had our own jobs doing our own stuff. And we would just do the podcast as a side project. It was just obvious that we were getting so many leads from the show, we might as well roll the stuff we do with the show into the company, because it’s the best marketing program. And it just feeds off of itself. And we already work together. Great. Finally, after only about 10 years, it’s turned into a real job. It’s an overnight success.

Rudy:
Exactly. It’s exploding on the scene. Where do you think it’s going for companies and organizations in terms of creating your own podcast?

John:
I think it was the journal had a story about the explosion of corporate podcasts and yeah, unfortunately, there’s going to be a huge gigantic explosion in incredibly boring podcasts. Yes, that’s that’s the biggest problem because there’s a couple things going on. And one big one, which I thought would have crushed us years ago, is, any celebrity that already has a fan base, this is just a no brainer for them. It’s like, who wants to hear the Harry Potter podcast from some people out of South Dakota, when JK Rowling could be telling you about what’s going on in the Harry Potter universe?

Or you know, pretty much any movie out there could do their own cast. So I kind of thought the Indies would take more of a beating. And then from the corporate side, too, it’s like, well, why are you gonna pummel your list that you’re already hitting with email and social and everything? To create a podcast when you could just sponsor a podcast for a fraction of the price down? You know, next week, you could start hitting new people with your message and your story? Yeah, if you’ve got unique content, definitely start a podcast and get it rolling. Because you can still, you know, find your fans and tell a great story.

Rudy:
I think yours started I believe more niche. Right? It started more about data and AI. I mean, that was your specialty.

John:
Yeah, well, I think it’s matured with marketing to AI that people don’t talk about too much. But we’re kind of reaching this point where, we went through five year period where social was brand new. I mean, that was totally had never been done before. You don’t see that anymore. You don’t see in smaller companies a person whose whole job is social media, you know, now it’s finally been rolled into customer service and kind of spread into certain things. But yeah, the market has matured a lot. And it’s not like every day, there’s something new going on with SEO or SEM, like the cement is starting to sweat a little bit. And those have become established career. So it’s not as wild west as it used to be.

The real win for us is not for us to be giving tips and tricks to, you know, the marketing ops person who’s like rolling out the software. But it’s to also put enough stuff out there so that the CEO gets a better idea of marketing and what it can do. Because that’s really, over the long run, what we want people to get to is that hey, when you start a career in marketing, you can end up as CEO. It’s not ending up as the CMO and bouncing from company to company. You know, I mean, I hate to say at the LA Times CMO is a human shield job, you know, it’s there for the VP of sales as CEO, like when there’s a downturn, you get to fire them.

Rudy:
We’ve had several CMOs on this show. You know, it’s true.

John:
And there’s a real thing there where it’s, does the CEO give you the keys to kind of play with the whole brand, and to interact with the customers or not? And in a lot of companies, it’s like, well, no, you pretty much just create content and you know, buy ads. And that’s all you do. And in better companies, it’s like, okay, let’s use all this data, to make sure that the customers’ experience is better and the product is better. And when and you cross over that line, the whole c suite is open to you.

Rudy:
I really enjoy doing this. And I think if you approach it with that attitude, you just enjoy it. It will come across, if people just start to produce a podcast because they think they ought to, you know, there’s a lot of work in this.

John:
Oh, it’s just like everything else, right? You know, websites are free. Anybody can build a website. That’s great. You know, do build a blog. Yeah, it’s fantastic. And yeah, if you’re just checking boxes, yeah. Yeah, it’s the passion is not there, then don’t don’t even step in the ring.

Rudy:
Yeah. When you look at the number of podcasts in the country, their last number I saw was like 700,000. But if you look at the active podcast, it was I think under 200,000. Because a lot of people started it and went there.

John:
Yeah, that’s a great trick, too, is like, Don’t commit to a podcast. Commit to doing a five episode series. Yeah, you know, exactly. And don’t put any dates on it. So that if you know, you leave it out there two years ago, people aren’t going Oh, yeah, they created their podcast, they haven’t put anything out in months. The state of the world and marketing is sort of an upheaval at the moment.

What is Changing in Marketing and Why Shouldn’t We Panic?

Rudy:
So given that, in terms of marketing, what are some things that you think are definitely about to change? Something thing maybe won’t, and some reasons why we shouldn’t panic.

John:
The big question is, you know, what will the rebound be and look like? Because it’s not fear of the markets that cause this. So it really is time to buy. And yeah, I think what will be really interesting too, is the whole working from home thing for everybody that hasn’t. I mean, kind of all of us who have done this work from home thing for a while, this is actually a great way to do it. You have to have the right culture, it won’t work. But if you do have the right culture, this is way better. There’s two hours in your car that you can give half an hour to work and an hour to your family. I mean, it’s just all win.

To not panic, whenever there’s an up there’s always a down. The cycle just continues, so don’t get too wrapped up in it. I love Zig Ziglar used to have a quote, it was something like the mass media has successfully predicted 12 of the last four economic downturns. We do see this, people now realizing more of the benefit of shutting off and you know, just kind of getting away from things. Don’t sit there all day on Facebook reading bad news, like you’re just gonna pummel yourself to death. So don’t do that.

Rudy:
Yeah, we are fortunate that right now it’s spring here in Atlanta, and it’s sunny and everything’s blooming. We have azaleas exploding everywhere. For me personally, and I think for a lot of my friends, it’s been a huge boon to our psyche. To be able to step outside in the sun and see the flowers.

John:
That is fantastic. Looking forward to that getting up here where it’s a little cold in Boston.

Rudy:
Well, John, thank you so much for this. I really have enjoyed this and do enjoy the podcast and thank you for putting that out there.

John:
Oh, thank you. It’s my pleasure. Yeah. Enjoyed chatting with you. And it’s good to have somebody that’s throwing great questions. That always makes it fun.

Rudy:
I hope you enjoyed that. Check out John’s podcast at MarketingOverCoffee.com, or follow him on Twitter @johnjwall. For shownotes and previous episodes, go to CreativeOuthouse.com/podcast. Thank you to Susan Cooper for producing the show. Resty Conception for editing the show. And to my buds Gopal Swamy for that great earcon and Jason Shablik for his audio advice. Well that’s it for this episode of Marketing Upheaval. And remember, if the world of marketing has got you confused, don’t worry. It’s all gonna change. See ya.

Podcast credits:

Host: Rudy Fernandez

Producer and Cover Art: Susan Cooper

Earcon sound design: Gopal Swamy

Audio Consultant: Jason Shablik

Post production provided by: Music Radio Creative

Hosting provided by: Buzzsprout Affiliate Link

Transcripts by: https://otter.ai

Email us at info@creativeouthouse.com and we’ll send you a free vinyl sticker featuring our Marketing Upheaval cover art.